Dr. Tori Olds’ Interview with Dr. Stan Tatkin, Founder of PACT (Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy)


(My abridged transcription. Parentheses and bold and italics are mine.)

Let me start with things that are true about the human primate. We are threat animals: if we do anything really really well we are good at scanning for threat in the environment, anything that could hamper our survival because that’s our primary directive is to survive as a species, as an organism.

And so forgive us if we pick it up where it may not belong — in the face, in the voice, in movements, in a string of words, in a word choice. But this is how we roll.

And we’re memory animals. That’s all we are. Everything we do is by memory. Very little is done with novelty, or very little novelty is actually being processed in any given day. Most everything we do is automatic. I’d probably say about 95 to 99% of our day is fully automatic, fully memory based. We’re not thinking much. We’re just the cruising along, conserving energy, as nature intended, and really not going out of our way to do much else.

That means that we automate everything. Everything that’s new becomes old soon, including our partners. So we have an automatic brain that automates each other, which means we stop paying attention — at a certain point we stop paying attention, we stop being present, and we think we know our partner.

But we really don’t.

We have an idea of our partner still and that idea is wrapped up in a memory system that goes all the way back to childhood…. And that is why this is a highly highly projective system, right? So forgive us if we don’t know that this is us re-experiencing something from my mother, my father, my brother, my teacher, the neighbor down the street.

But that is the kind of memory we’re dealing with. And this also is backed up by a recognition system that is very very energy conserved, extremely fast, and shoots first and asks questions later.

So what could possibly go wrong, right?

And that’s what we are dealing with.

It’s not a personality issue.

It’s not an attachment issue. 

It’s not a historical issue.

It’s not a trauma issue.

It’s a human being problem. The human condition is such that we have a lot of features when it comes to survival, a lot of feature that pertain to hunting and gathering, protecting our own. All of these things are really important features there, but are bugs elsewhere. For instance, I compare and contrast all the time; that’s important for living out in the wild. But not so good in love relationships, because I could compare and contrast my way out of a relationship. I’m always aware of what’s missing. Very good for growing into more complexity out in the wild, hunting and gathering, seeking out food, new lands, but very bad in love relationships because it leads to disappointment,  leads to a lack of gratitude, leads to being depressed…. So these are all features in one area and bugs in another area….

That’s just some of the problems, right? Because there’s more. Our communication and digital communication is horrible, even on a good day. We think we understand each other; most of the time we don’t. I think I’m being clear. I’m not. I think I understand what you said. I don’t. We approximate each other, which is a dangerous thing. But it’s the only thing we have, because we’re never really ever on the same page, because we’re two different minds, right? So we approximate each other. And if we’re really sloppy — which we are — and really lazy — we’re going to make mistakes, and we’re going to take a ball and run with it because our appraisal systems are based on misinformation. And so our perceptions are like fun house mirrors — I think I see an angry face, but no, you’re neutral and I’m angry. Our memory isn’t what we think. We try to remember things accurately but it’s never accurate.

And so we have two people arguing over what happened and who did what, when, and where.

And they’re both wrong.

So we have the slippery slope, this ground that is moving all of the time, where we can’t really know what the truth is exactly because there are too many moving parts and there are too many errors that we make.

But that is important for the therapist too. That’s why we have to work in a certain way and not be too sure, always be curious, always cross-check, always be corroborating information,  dig deeper, look for evidence. That’s something in our field we have to do — move on proof, evidence. We check our hunches by testing and retesting, but we don’t go with our gut only. We go with our gut and our mind….

If we really just grounded ourselves in the truth about human primates we would be comforted by the knowledge that all of us are aggressive, warlike, fickle, moody, impulsive, opportunistic, we’re influenceable easily by a group — I’m affiliated this way, now I’m affiliated that way — (we’re influence easily by our feelings); we are racist and xenophobic.

This is the human (shadow) part of us we dont like to accept.

And we ignore it at our own peril.

The only thing that makes us better across civilization have been principles of governance, rules, religious laws, norms. That keeps us in check so we can get along with others. Otherwise we will go to war. Or we do something that’s terrible.

Same thing with the two-person system. They’re the smallest unit of a society or civilization. They too have to have (1) a shared purpose — Why are we doing this? It can’t be (emotionally-based) love; it’s got to be something that’s good for the long run. (2) What’s our shared vision? — Where are we going? Where do we want to go? Why? Then (3) shared principles of governance — What are we going to put in place? We’re two different people — animals — moving through time — what are we going to put into place that protects us from each other? If people do those three things, that’s really PACT — PACT is secure functioning, two-person system, shared shared power, shared authority, operating according to principles of fairness, justice, mutual sensitivity, collaboration, cooperation. That’s the goal. That’s what has to be orherwise people will not survive. They won’t thrive….

We’re very good at processing threat cues and then making our own interpretations / narratives which are always self-affirming, self-serving, (and self- justifying).

That’s how we roll.

It’s not good or bad, right or wrong.

The only thing that saves us is having a real shared idea of what we’re going to do and what we’re not going to do under any circumstances — any circumstances. These principles are considered perfect, even though humans are not.

When we have these principles — like we protect each other in public and private at all times — that’s a principle right? — we do that.

And if one of us fails the only thing that person can do is just kneel and beg forgiveness and make it right. That’s all.

That’s governing.

When you have agreements — prior agreements, prior permissions, when you’re looking forward to what could possibly go wrong — and you both want that thing even though it’s going to be the hardest thing to do, right? You’re picking what is going to be the best thing to do in these situations — the right thing to do when it’s the hardestand we’re going to hold each other to it — that’s how two people can make each other awesome. That’s how two people can make each other grow up, be more, be better, be wiser, smarter, and be exemplars for their kids, right? — because they’re developing an ethos, they’re developing this is what we do in the social emotional world, this is what we don’t do, and if we fail, we fall on our swords, make amends, make it right if necessary, and then move forward.

More information can be found here —

https://www.thepactinstitute.com/what-is-pacthttps://www.thepactinstitute.com/what-is-pact

About John

I am a married, 56-year old, Midwesterner, with four children. My primary interest is in leading a very examined and decent and Loving life; my interests that are related to this and that feed into this include (and are not limited to) -- psychology, philosophy, poetry, critical thinking, photography, guitar, soccer, tennis, chess, bridge.
This entry was posted in Dr. Stan Tatkin, Dr. Tori Olds, Emotional Maturity, Growing Up, Intimate Relationships, Love is Not a Feeling, Mature Love, PACT - Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy, Personal Growth, Self-Awareness and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

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